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Derrick Goold: Salutations. Welcome to the wrapup chat from the St. Louis Cardinals 2023 --- wait, forget that. Nope. Welcome to the first chat about the 2024 Cardinals. You've probably read enough about what happened. I'm sure you've got questions about what's going to happen. As always, the chat will take the shape that the chatters create with their questions. Bring the heat. I'll do my best to bring the info. And away we go.

Going to try something new as well with the format of the chat here. Since we shifted interfaces, I know it's been tricky to read. I have an idea for remedying that and will give it a test drive today. Please let me know if it works well and is a better experience for you, the readers, subscribers, and chatters.

Question: Mo said their model would be tested going into this season. It was flattened, crushed by the weight.

DG: He did indeed. That was an answer to a question asked by my colleague Ben Frederickson, and it was part of the ongoing questions and challenges from the local media about the lack of pitching impact and pitching dept. At one point, we brought up the question on just how they would even fill the innings needed to contend. This was met with an answer about how the team "made its bets." In a followup press conference, I asked Mozeliak if the model was tested, how did it do on the test. In his answer, he took issue with my use of test as an analogy: “It’s not a pass-fail. It’s understanding the value of what you’re paying for. … You can reverse-engineer on the market what you should be paying based on your payroll or your revenues. Has the market moved? Yes. So, do we need to change the denominator sometime? Perhaps. That’s what we’re looking at." 

Q: Not sure where everyone else is on this but Skip, Mabes and Jon Jay's squad (shout out to baseball lifer Jody Reed too) will likely be the adopted home team in our household this week/month.

DG: Eager to see how they match up with a team that they know well. The Marlins have intriguing pitching -- that's what got them to the playoffs. They play a compelling brand and crisp style of baseball -- which is not a surprise. But it's those lefties coming out of the bullpen that is really going to give them a chance against the Phillies, who, arguably, are the second best team entering the playoffs on the NL side. If you don''t know the name Tanner Scott yet, you're about to. Scott could be the reliever of the month in the NL for September, and the crucible of a playoff race, he was exceptional. And, oh, he's left-handed -- so there he'll be ready to face the Harper, Schwarber power couple of the Phillies.

Q: Looking at the Cardinals lineup this past weekend....How many players in your opinion, will be optioned back to the minors?

DG: Not as many as you'd think -- and that's just because most of them will be removed from the roster to make room for the overhaul and new additions. Some will designated coming out of the postseason schedule, some might be non-tendered if they cannot be traded, and others will have the right to become minor-league free agents if they don't feel they have a future with the Cardinals. The Cardinals filled up their 40-man roster with players to help them get through the 2023 season. Many of them were not added to help the Cardinals into the 2024 season. That's just the way it goes when it comes to the 40-man roster -- and also a team that sold from its big-league club at the trade deadline and then had a series of injuries sweep many everyday players off the active roster later. When it comes to your question specifically, two of the more intriguing players for where the winter and spring could take them are Masyn Winn and Richie Palacios. Winn is part of the team's future, and he'll come to camp as the presumptive starting shortstop. That does not guarantee him the position, and there will be competition -- or rather, there will be alternatives. Tommy Edman is part of that equation, so is Brendan Donovan at second base, Nolan Gorman at second base, and then Thomas Saggese, if he makes noise in Jupiter. Palacios has changed the Cardinals' plans for him and played his way into a 40-man roster, Mozeliak said. We'll see if that remains the case after the audit in the coming days. But as a fourth/fifth outfielder who hits from the left side -- there's a spot on the roster for him.

Q: Hi Derrick! The worst season imaginable finally ends. Let the off-season begin! Give us the chance (in %) of Bill DeWitt Jr calling a press conference this week to announce a major firing or shift of responsibilities for Mo. 

DG: Based on comments from Bill DeWitt Jr. and answers he's given me when I've asked, that is not expected at all, not when it comes to Mozeliak and his role atop the baseball operations. I asked DeWitt if he felt the leadership that put the team in the spot was the one to lead the organization out of it -- especially when it has no experience with the quick rebuild. DeWitt said he trusted this group to do it. End quote. He has repeated that stance in the weeks sense. That does not mean there won't be changes. The Cardinals are going to address their player development structure, and that could bring changes and even an expansion of the people involved. They are also going to look into ADDING to Marmol's staff. The Cardinals shrank their development staff coming out of the pandemic, and they've really never filled those positions, from field coordinator to the group of former players who served as advisors, like Chris Carpenter. They will look to do that. There will be a lot of attention on the MLB side and the rebuilding of the pitching staff -- and it should be -- but just as compelling will be how the Cardinals address the farm system, the pitching development there, and how there has been an erosion of what the Cardinals expect at those levels, in results and in player advancement.

Q: Would signing Aaron Nola, Sonny Gray, and Jordan Hicks solve the Cards' pitching problem?

DG: It would be a start. They would still need to add a starter. Can we have some real talk about that? However the Cardinals want to position what Thompson and Hudson did in the final month of the season to improve or upgrade their spots on the depth chart, where they fit in to the rotation is a big factor in where the Cardinals shop for a third starter. Don't think about the rotation as five pitchers. Think of it as a number of starts that have to be filled and how the team wants those starts to be covered. Obviously, 34 of them from an ace would be ideal. And then 34 of them from a No. 2 and then 34 of them from a quality start monster. So if the that's Nola, Gray, and Mikolas, it's a start. Where Thompson and Hudson come in is being there to provide 10, 15, 20 starts and that allows the Cardinals to reach for a pitcher with high upside but an injury risk that may provide the other 20, 15, or 10 starts. That is a way to improve the rotation. Because 15 starts from bulldog starter and 15 from one of the starters who improved this season has the potential to be better than 30 from one starter on the back side of a rotation. And that is something on the Cardinals' mind. The performance of Thompson in the role frees them up to take a risk that maybe improves the rotation for 15 starts, maybe wins the lottery and gets 30, but they're protected to at least get an improved 30 from that spot in the rotation.

Q: I read in your column this morning that fans booed Mo yesterday. Look, I think Mo has lost his fastball and is a major reason why this organization is on full tilt heading into the off-season, but fans should aim their angst a rung higher. This mess is DeWitt’s. He isn’t some absentee Georgia Frontiere owner cashing checks. He’s in on every decision and he’s financially milked this fanbase for the last 8 years and given us 4 playoff wins in return. His once iron-clad legacy is wobbling. He needs a transformative off-season to show he is invested in winning not just making money.

DG: I agree that this is a definitive offseason for the DeWitt ownership and the Mozeliak baseball operations. And part of that is how the latter influences the former. It is quite literally Mozeliak's job to lobby ownership to approve moves that will make the team better -- not just operate within the constraints or budgets given. Absolutely, DeWitt is involved in all of the decisions, and he has adhered to a model when it comes to signing pitchers that is risk adverse. He's brought that up, specifically when it came to signing a right-handed pitcher long-term into his 30s, such as Max Scherzer. Look at the Cardinals experience with pitchers they have signed. Obviously, Adam Wainwright is the outlier because he meant a lot to the team when he was not pitching, and ownership put him in the legacy column. Still, he missed several expensive years with injury. Pitchers do that. The thing is the market no longer allows for the scratch-off ticket move. Brad Penny isn't signing for a one-year deal. A Kyle Lohse isn't coming through the door in mid-March to sign a one-year deal. The Cardinals were ahead of the pitching market -- it caught up, passed them, and they are running the same race. It is the front office's job to convince ownership of this change and the need to adapt the model and spending and all of it. So, this winter has those two tracks going. Can Mozeliak and Marmol make the case for updating the spending model, and does DeWitt and the ownership group approve that change, literally buy into the argument that front office has made and will make again.

Early word from inside the Cardinals discussion is that ownership is on board. Adam Wainwright touched on this and others have said it privately; "Ownership is hungry."

We will see.

Q: Mo telling the fanbase yesterday that he "likes" Mikolas, Matz, Thompson, and Rom for the future. Well, their ERA's are either around 5 or they're only good for 15 starts per year b/c of injuries. Is he backpedaling off his "we need 3 starters from outside the organization" comment from 2 months ago? Please give us your take on his comment(s) from this weekend.

DG: I did not hear them. I'll catch up on them later; my focus was the coverage for the Post-Dispatch and having the best reporting and content that moved the conversation forward in this morning's paper (last night's web site). Mozeliak spoke to Bally Sports. He declined to speak when approached by one of my colleagues, preferring instead to reserve his comments to us until an upcoming presser at which time we'll have a chance to respond to those comments and cross-examine what's changed, if in fact the comments have changed. If he's talking about their roles for the future, fine. The 2024 is the present.

Q: "I want a clubhouse full of guys that has one thing on their minds, and it's not themselves. It's winning a championship. So, you start out by weeding those out." Marmol Tyler O.N. and ?

DG: Lot of speculation on who exactly Marmol was referencing. That question was asked. He declined to go into detail. Let me say this: Any speculation is wrong if this is about one player. Period. It's not. And it may not even be a specific few players. It could be a general comment on what emerged here and there and not consistently from one or two or seven players, but what at times in different spots. This season frayed a lot of people around and within the clubhouse. How people respond to such frustrations and stress can be revealing. Marmol's point as been if they don't learn from that, if they don't learn about what they can improve on and how they can be better positioned to have a different response to challenges, a different vibe to the team, then, as he said, they messed up. It could be a general comment. And the best way to build a better clubhouse chemistry, if that's the word you want to use, is to build a winning team. Nothing quite makes the chemistry come together yadda yadda yadda yadda like winning. Winning is a great curative. Heck, winning is amazing bonding agent.

Q: Thanks for your chat. What was the response to Mo’s getting booed over and over again yesterday? By management fans and media?

DG: I did not talk to any fans about it. The ones who booed made their feelings known. Not sure what would emerge from talking to fans about it other than the ones who were made booed, others would think it's disrespectful, and others would just prefer to talk about Wainwright. Management took note. And most of the people in management or media thought that Mozeliak did a good job to defuse the boos with his comment about them calling for Nootbaar. He's been booed before. He hasn't exactly had the snappy comeback like that before. Look, he has access to all sorts of metrics and data and spin rates and contract info and all of those things -- and he also has access to the standings. They don't lie. He had to expect a 91-loss season would bring some boos.

Q: Given the limited number of top flight free agent pitchers and the expected competition for them, is it realistic to think the Cardinals can acquire the pitching help they desire?

DG: Fair question. Yes. Yes it is. The Cardinals can improve their rotation through three direct avenues -- free agents (as you mention), trades (and this is where some fascinating names could be added), and then the international market. The Cardinals can improve and upgrade and do it quickly (this offseason) through the pitchers available in those places.

Q: I am a big proponent of a Gray, Imanaga, Paxton pursuit, but have you ever heard anything to suggest the Cards would have any interest in Paxton? Seems like an ideal #5 with great stuff, but will probably only give you 20 - 25 starts. Also, would seem like a guy that Thompson and Liberatore may benefit from being able to learn from. Curious if there could be a match there.

DG: I have not. That is not to say they do not have interest or that there isn't a match. You're thinking in the right realm, but I just haven't heard his name. It may just reveal the limit of my ability to confirm that. Will have more chances to do that -- and better feel for it -- as the GM Meetings arrive. There are a few pitchers who could be of interest to the Cardinals via trade, and some of my time this week will be spent pinning down genuine info on that, if possible. This is going to be long. The speculation will be thick. I'm sure that Xwitter will buzz with it. But I want to really try to pin down with reporting not guessing what they think they can pull off via trade.

Q: In your column today, Marmol was quoted about getting the weeds out of the clubhouse. Did you sense turmoil in the clubhouse this year? And, did the team leaders (Goldschmidt, Arenado, Wainwright, etc) try to address it?

DG: I did not "sense" turmoil beyond what we have discussed and all could see -- there was seething and anger and frustration with their play, their results, and how they just could not get any traction as a group. This season was not fun for the clubhouse. It was weight, and they wore it. And also, many of them -- and many fans too, I reckon -- were not exactly braced for what follows selling at the trade deadline. A team is not supposed to get better that season after the deadline, not after trading talent. As far as the clubhouse vibe ... Look no further than the Contreras experience, how it began and the conversations and bonds that had to bring it back together, including Wainwright by the end being a champion for Contreras, there in the clubhouse Sunday just embracing him and sharing a private conversation as teammates packed all around them. That situation had to be mended in the clubhouse. There were other examples of situations that should have been addressed within the clubhouse, by players, by players who would be emerging as leaders, and when they weren't then the manager or a coach had to do it. That's not always the place of a coach or manager. Some of the best quality control for a style of play happens peer to peer -- and that is where the leadership of a clubhouse reveals itself, not in interviews, not on the field, not in stats or stature or name-recognition, but in that interaction between players and the accountability that they bring and command from each other. Brendan Donovan has been mentioned a few times as a player who does that well.

Q: Ollie said something yesterday about wanting players who put the team before themselves and needs to weed out those who don't. Did he elaborate on that at all, being the straight shooter that he appears to be? Were you surprised to hear that comment? Thank You for your coverage during the season.

DG: I asked the question that prompted that answer. Other reporters followed up. I was not surprised by the bluntness of his comment. He did decline to elaborate until the offseason. He did that because he is candid, he can be blunt, and he had a good sense that if he did not cut off his comment at that point and decline the questions about it that followed, the message he wanted to deliver would not be as direct or as general as he intended it to be.

And thank you for the compliment.

Q: Very legit of marmol to pull Fermin back instead of Irving Lopez knowing Lopez was still looking for that first hit and perhaps will never getting back to the majors. Fermin goes in the book as a kind of opposite Kerry Robinson Ben DeLuzio and Gary Kolb!

DG: Nice detail you noticed there. Yes, I agree. That was a savvy move -- and aware move by the manager and the dugout. I'm glad you brought it up because it was a small detail in yesterday's game that slipped through my keyboard and did not make the coverage.

Q: A lot of talk centers around the need for pitching. Has there been any recent information reported on acquiring another outfield bat with potential to hit 25 home runs. Don't see that coming from Nootbar, Edman, Donovan or O'Neill.

DG: There has not been. The Cardinals have a higher opinion of Nootbaar's upside than yours. Far higher. Seriously.

Q: Hello, Mr. Goold. Thank you and your colleagues for another season of outstanding coverage of the Cardinals, much better than the team played. I was surprised to read Oli's comments in your story, and Mr. Frederickson's writing in his column today, that suggested a fractured Cardinals' clubhouse. All teams, I imagine, have differences among players, but this seems to suggest more. Did you find that to be the case in your coverage of the team? Thank you.

DG: Thank you for the kind words. I'm not sure what to do with questions like this -- because the answer should be in the coverage. We should not wait to put in the chat such significant information. But maybe the chat is a place to collect it? To summarize it? To remind and gather the coverage that touched on it and detailed it all season?

There were stories and details and comments throughout the season that had to do with the climate and feel in the clubhouse -- and some of the issues that had, so many of them stemming from the team struggling, losing, and losing in a way that they did not recognize and did not know how to stop. There were chaotic stretches for this Cardinals team -- from odd transactions to friction in comments. All of it. And that was there in the coverage throughout, I hope. Recall the time that Marmol benched O'Neill and how the manager had to step in to do what peers did not, and because the manager did what say the clubhouse did not it was public, and they could not hide from how public it was. There was the Contreras situation, as detailed earlier. He told me that the pitchers weren't throwing the pitches he wanted, that they weren't as mean as they needed to be. Batters were comfortable. Flaherty said some of the pitches that were called did not make sense. The situation with Contreras needed the clubhouse to mend it, and eventually that happened and Contreras deserves a lot of credit for how he handled it, and it makes him one of the more compelling new leaders for this next phase of the Cardinals, pending their conversations about catcher for 2024. There was Genesis Cabrera. He was not happy with his role, let that frustration be known, challenged the clubhouse/manager about it, was not happy to accept the role or do the role that was given, and then he was gone. Removed from the roster. This is an in-season example of what Marmol was referenced on Sunday. Look, the stress and strain on the clubhouse is clear from the standings. This is a team that did not expect to lose, did not find a way to stop losing, and then kept losing. A lot. It was a team, again, that had to understand that they were going to get worse after the trade deadline -- and I get the sense that was a shock to some, and that includes fans. They were accelerating the losing by trading some of their best players, especially pitchers, from an already weakened and vulnerable spot on the roster. In my experience, it's not unusual when a group struggles and loses as a team, that priorities shift for some individuals to their own performance and what can they get from a season when what the team can get from it is determined. How players react to that, what they do to help a team or teammate in a lost season will be part of who emerges as shepherds and leaders for what comes next for the Cardinals.

Q: Hey Derrick! Outside of Sonny Gray and Aaron Nola (who you mentioned in a recent story) are there any other names who you have heard them linked to recently? As far as the trade market goes, is there any indications on how “high” they want to aim there?

DG: I'm working on that. Reported the Nola and Gray information in this morning's paper. The Cardinals believe they can make a compelling offer to Gray, and we'll see how quickly they move to do that when the postseason is over. Nola is going to generate an auction. We'll see if the Cardinals have the stomach for that. They'll have discussions with Snell, and of course, and there has already some intel gathering on that end to see where and how he would fit, but also how far to go in the bidding to get him. In the coming weeks -- and especially at the GM meetings -- there will be more names that surface. Again, there will be a lot of guessing out there. And some of it will be right. Some of it will just a lot of tickles on Xwitter. I'm really going to try to provide what reporting can prove and give a sense of what the Cardinals think is realistic, and what the market says is realistic.

Q: First, congratulations on your fine coverage on Adam Wainwright's retirement.

DG: Thank you, Joan.

Q: Can you reveal which players Oli was alluding to with his quote about players puttings themselves before the team??

DG: I can already tell that this answer is going to make you unhappy. If I could, I would put that in the story and not leave readers in the dark. Subscribers to the paper would be rightfully angry if I did not provide as much information as I could to them in the articles, and my editors would echo that. That is not how reporting works. Report what you can prove and don't pocket it for later to get attention. Not until the chat. Again, as mentioned early, it is entirely possible that he was not speaking about specific players as much as specific events or just the general moves and commitment he wants from the players coming in -- and the players returning. Keep that in mind. Thank you.

Q: OK the offseason conversation is obviously going to be dominated by pitching, so ... I think they should leave ST with two front line (read 1-2 level) starters and a total of 7 viable big league starters. My opinion is they currently have 3 1/2. That would be Mikolas, Matz (1/2), Thompson and Hudson. Swing away.

DG: That is definitely an outcome. They probably shouldn't wait for spring training to find answers. Matz's injuries leave him in that spot, not his pitching. He has a place in a contending rotation.

Q: With Oli's comment about players who he thinks are more or less self centered, how many players do you think that might be? No, names since you don't have a reporter's proof. Just an estimated number.

DG: I don't know. What ever number I offer is wrong and only will invite more speculation, right? And it's not as simple as x-number of players, because it could be x-number of moments of events of issues that x-number of players can overcome because of x-number of times the manager or peers have brought it up and the purpose for Marmol sending that message is to galvanize a clubhouse around the message, and welcome players into it, not point fingers for who wasn't a part of it. That is in play here.

Q: How will pitching philosophy change with arms being so precious. Will 5 inning outings be the norm with Bull pen guys mopping up? 100 mph pitchers more common so hurt arms maybe more common as well. What does the future hold for pichers in the MLB?

DG: That is definitely where the game is right now, and it has been going in that direction for the past decade. The aces have vanished. The big inning starters are an endangered species. Velocity rules, and now so does volatility. It is hard for me to see where this ends or where the trends reverse. It seems like this is the snowball forever rolling down hill. But ... Adam Wainwright has said multiple times and made the case that there will be a cycle where the starter, the classic starter returns. His point is that teams will grow weakened or exhausted by the injury troubles that come from throwers, throwers, throwers, and into the vacuum the starters will emerge again as the answer. The durably, movement, pitchers. He makes a compelling case. Look no further than Arraez from the hitting vantage point. He is the outlier in the launch angle/damage age. He's a contact guy, who defies the probability of balls in play. And what happened at the trade deadline? Hitters like him were in demand for teams moving the better players. The Cardinals acquired two contact oriented players. Other teams plucked them off waivers. It's small but it's a trend and it traces back to the fact that Arraez was having success, so maybe there's a place for that hitter. Wainwright's description of the pitching going through cycles fits that. What has to happen for the cycle to start is what always shapes trends in the game -- what are teams willing to pay for. Pitchers will become what teams are paying them to be. Velocity, strikeouts -- those get more bucks than innings, quality starts. When the market shifts, the pitching will.

Q: With the lack of top of the rotation starters on the free agent market this offseason as well as other teams reluctance to part with high end young talented pitchers, how confident are you that the front office will be able to put a rotation together that will actually give us depth as well as a chance of going beyond the first round of the playoffs?

DG: I don't share your same view of the market. There is talent available. It's up to you to decide your level of confidence based on the track record of the front office. Their free-agent signings have not worked out all that well for several years now. There is an analytical argument to make that the best free agent signing for the Cardinals in the past 10 years is ...

wait for it

... Albert Pujols, c.2022.

Q: I was a surprised when I compared Aaron Nola and Sonny Gray’s stats. Gray’s stats were much better on paper, but fans think Nola would be a better signing. Would an outfield of Edmand in center, Walker in left and Nootbar in right and Donavon as Dh and swing man solve the outfield congestion? Your thoughts

DG: All of those things are possible and make sense. I don't see much congestion in the outfield, and that is in part because of how you outline it -- there's a spot with the DH. One of the most interesting conversations the Cardinals will have in the coming days and then explore all winter is who is their center fielder. Is it Edman? Is it Carlson? Do they get spring to figure that out, or do the Cardinals commit now to Winn at shortstop and leave Edman to play in center or be a utility player. Or, does the move for pitching solve this by requiring one of the players in the deal.

Q: How near is Thomas Saggese to at least getting an invite to Spring Training?

DG: He will get an invite to 2024 major-league spring training and he is earmarked for prominent playing time during big-league spring training this coming year. Look for him to make his MLB debut in 2024.

Q: When are we going to jump right into the KMOX Sports Open Line Segment where we pitch half baked trade issues like guys coming off surgery and Dakota Hudson for Dylan Cease?

DG: Evidently, now.

Q: Are there any surprise names who the Cardinals could look to move this off-season?

DG: Maybe if the Cardinals can add three pitchers from the outside, I can get better this offseason at answering questions like this. I wish I had a better feel for how to do this -- because I hope there aren't surprises. I hope that the coverage is clear and concise and ahead of the news so that when the Cardinals do sign a pitcher, readers can go, yep, expected that because of what I read in the Post-Dispatch. And, honestly, if it was a surprise then I wouldn't be doing anything more than guessing at this point. That would be a surprise for long-timer readers. Perhaps the best answer here is -- the Cardinals' offers for pitchers from Japan. There are four or five pitchers who could help the Cardinals, and they've expanded their resources in Japan and the are better positioned than ever to make that move, make that bid, and if that comes as a surprise given their past then it fits.

You asked for names, so let me offer some from that market.

Yoshinobu Yamamoto, RHP of Orix. Shota Imanaga, LHP, of Yokohama. Yuki Matsui, RHP, of Rakuten. Kona Takahashi, RHP, of Seibu. Naoyuki Uwasawa, RHP, of Nippon Ham. Not all of them will come over the majors, but several will, and there will be some big bids for a few, some smart plays for others.

Q: Derrick, I am wondering why they did not give Yepez more of a chance this year. He went from nearly a hero in the playoffs last year to an afterthought. Was he that bad at Triple A? It seems like he could have at least been a valuable trade chip.

DG: He did have stretches where he struggled and did not have his swing at Class AAA, and those coincided at times with the Cardinals need. It also did not help his chance for advancement when the Cardinals attempted to have it both ways with the outfield -- assure playing time for Jordan Walker to improve at the position while also making defensive decisions elsewhere. It got to a spot where Baker was having a strong season, earned the promotion, but that came at the expense then of any at-bats that Yepez would have had at first base, and the defensive focus in the outfield (that the Cardinals wanted and did not always have) squeezed playing time from him on the other side. As far as trades go. One thing about the deadline this year is the Cardinals were selling, and that means selling from expiring contracts and selling from their depth, and that is a referendum on what they had to offer. If they got a compelling offer, they would have made the move.

Q: Hi Derrick. Is the front office stale ? Continuity is good until it isn’t. Don’t you think they could use another voice? Someone with a different take .

DG: To me, this is one of the questions that has been facing them for awhile. I got push back from DeWitt and Mozeliak when I asked them about it during the previous extensions -- not this spring, but the previous -- that the front office all received. I wondered if their cherished continuity had become complacency. They were winning. They had winning seasons. But they weren't winning pennants. And they knew they weren't innovating at the same pace as other teams. They were the New Orleans chef that spiced up a dish and then said, well, that's what I do well, while all around them other chefs were using that same technique but, bam!, adding new flavors, new techniques, modern approaches, but no no no no the original chef kept the same approach, the same recipe, and then promoted from within to assure that they did the same thing well, but it was still the same thing. The Cardinals insist they can avoid being stale and have continuity. Maybe. To me, it's really interesting that some of the additions that helped them in recent years -- Jeff Albert and Skip Schumaker come to mind -- had ties to the Cardinals, but had experience elsewhere. As the Cardinals look to expand or shift the development staff and the coaching staff, look for elements of that -- who has ties to the Cardinals but has gone elsewhere and can bring new ideas to a familiar recipe.

Q: Watching the U.S. in the Ryder Cup this week reminded me a lot of the Cardinals. Talented but no sand. Goldy/Arenado are a lot like Scheffler/Cantlay, very good and reliable players but can they rally the team? The Cardinals need an edge, even if that comes with some personality clash in the clubhouse. The organization has become one giant safe space where no one gets told "no" and pushback at the higher levels is seen as insubordination. This team is weak, this season exposed that.

DG: It's an interesting conversation, especially today and this season when there seems to be a lot of criticism on the manager when he takes on that role you describe. As if it's wrong from him but right from a player. Perhaps the Cardinals' clubhouse can do something about that. It should.

Q: Is it safe to say playoffs are a requirement in 2024 or Mo is packing?

DG: No. 

It's interesting because that was the subject of the questions I asked Oliver Marmol in his office on Sunday. You are welcome to check with the other media members who were there. I mentioned how Kapler had a better record and was gone, that other managers could be moved on from, and yet he had the confidence of his ownership and front office despite the first 90-loss season in a generation. He spoke at length and honestly about the priority has to be winning a championship. He said the fans deserve it. So, I asked what's at stake for him? What's his skin in the game when it comes that expectation? He's got one year left on his contract. Is that what's at stake? If nothing is at stake then how much gravity is there really on this championship talk? That was what I wondered. Marmol said that what's stake is the support of the fans and the history of the team that sets a standard for that support.

Q: When can they start pursuing Free Agents? Also, based on Oli's comment about those individuals who thought of themselves over team will be gone ... can you please speculate as to who that is?

DG: Players are not free agents until immediately after the World Series ends. That is when the market opens.

It is irresponsible for a beat writer to speculate on that subject, in my opinion. I cannot be wrong with such statements. I have done my best to explain the comments and offer insight. But it's not my place to start guessing names without proof. If i use names, I'll have proof.

Q: I'm sure you're going to get a ton of trade questions and we all know your dislike for them. But at the end of the day, it puts food on the table. Of these players and your sources, who would the Cards be willing to stomach to put in a deal that helps ( not saying centerpiece ) gets them a #2/3 starting pitcher with 2-3 years for arb control. Please rank. B. Donovan, N. Gorman, T. Hence, T. Roby or I. Herrera. Thanks

DG: Haven't seen many trade questions, honestly. Kind of surprised by that. The Cardinals are not eager to trade any of the players you mention. They're going to explore deals that include some outfielders and some younger pitchers, not Hence. But they recognize that a few of the pitchers that they want to at least explore will get a return call from a team that wants Donovan or, specifically, Gorman. Again, they are not eager to part with either of them. It is possible that some talks will come down to Gorman or no movement, especially when you talk about a pitcher with that upside and the control years.

Cardinals are also not eager to acquire a pitcher like Roby and then flip him so soon. They sought him for a reason and want to see that play out.

Q: MLB just released it's top international prospects. Many of them are pictured wearing a cap of current MLB team and it says they are tied to a particular team. What does that mean exactly? I assume that's the team who will sign them in January, but how do we know that, and how official is it?

DG: I've had a hard time pinning down precisely what ranking you're referencing, so please forgive me if I get this wrong. I believe you're talking about the international rankings on MLB-dot-com. Not exactly MLB's rankings, but the rankings by the knowledgeable baseball writers (such as Jesse Sanchez) at MLB-dot-come. These are the same rankings as the top prospects lists you see like top 30s by team or top 100s for all the minors. This is just a specific listing of international players. And, yes, all of those players are tied to that team with the logo. They are in or will be in that system.

Q: I must admit I was rooting for the Marlins to make the playoffs. Any chance Skip gets votes for manager of the year?

DG: He absolutely will. May even win it.

Q: Been a fan since I can remember (I remember the '64 team well) and '23 is the worst I can remember. But was July-August Jordan Walker's sophomore slump? He was the Cardinal's best hitter in September in my opinion. Winn was starting to sting the ball too. Baker seemed to take a step. Ollie had them playing hard on all 162. It ws bad but I'm not gong anywhere.

DG: I had not thought about phrasing it that way for Jordan Walker's midseason, but there is absolutely something to how he finished the season -- and where he's headed going into 2024. Sophomore surge? Would that be the phrase to learn how to type?

Q: Hi Derrick, hope all is well. Do you think Mo and Mr. DeWitt Jr. see eye to eye on the payroll increase needed to add starting pitching?

DG: That is an answer that will gain clarity in the coming month, for sure. But all indications from people who know is that, yes, they are in an agreement in what the team needs and how to make that happen in the modern market. Again, we'll see. Actions speak louder than board meetings. And they may make bids that don't get players. The bids will be telling, even if the player elects to go elsewhere.

Q: DG, acknowledging that the rotation does need a lot of help, it seems to me that not enough attention is being paid to the woeful bullpen performance all year. With all of those blown saves, had we been able to convert 20 of those saves, that would be a 90 win season! Still short of elite, but definitely in the hunt. Is the team that confident in the bullpen pieces for next year? Thx.

DG: I hear where you're coming from and understand how all the noise about the rotation could take up the oxygen around the overall improvement needed for the pitching staff, bullpen included. Two things on this.

1) The manager has been clear in the past week by always linking the two. Several times in the past week or so, he's said that the team needs arms to start games and arms to end them, too. He points to Philly and Milwaukee as teams with the bullpens that end games in the sixth inning, and that whatever the Cardinals do they need to make sure they have arms to start games and arms to end them, too. He has been direct in those comments.

2) The bullpen's improvement is related to the rotation's. One of the things that went awry for the Cardinals this season was a bullpen that had to shoulder leftover innings the rotation did not cover. That's an issue. That's a strain on the bullpen. And that often jars them from roles, from lanes, from innings, from preferred matchups, and leaves the bullpen scrambling to pick up what the rotation did not. It means carrying one or two long relievers, instead of another fire-breathing dragon. That kind of think. Fix the rotation, the bullpen will benefit.

Q: Mo said the Cardinals model would be tested going into this season. It was flattened; crushed by the weight of their own hubris. Now they have painted themselves into a spending corner and have lost the fans faith a long the way. If they have Waino a dollar scratch off ticket for his retirement gift it would have been more money than they spent on a rotation upgrade for 2023. How does an organization lose its way so quickly? How does an ownership group who is notoriously allergic to spending big on starting pitching all of a sudden change their outdated thinking?

DG: The first 90-loss season under their ownership ought to do it, no?

Q: Was wondering about the 2024 draft order. I realize that there is a draft lottery with percentages decreasing from the worst record down or up depending how you look at it). The Cardinals and Nationals ended with identical records signifying the 5th and 6th worst records. What is the tie breaking rule?

DG: It actually doesn't matter this season. The Cardinals have a 10% chance of the first overall pick. Why doesn't matter? Well, the Nationals are not eligible for the draft lottery this season. They have benefited from it in consecutive years and thus cannot be involved in it this year. That negates any claim they had because of their record, and it leaves the Cardinals alone with a 10% chance of getting the first overall pick.

This was explained in greater detail here, at this link.

Q: With regards to the swing flaws for Walker and Gorman that were exposed the past two years, why weren't those discovered in the minors? Gorman not being able to hit a high fastball seems to be a relatively easy flaw to see, if not so much to fix. How much revamping of our minor league coaches and processes need to take place to catch up to the Braves, Reds and Dodgers, etc, who all had major contributions from rookies? Ty.

DG: I fear that my answer is going to come across as terse or flip, and I genuinely don't mean it that way, but it is the answer, and it is a quick, brief, blunt answer. So, please trust me that it should not be read as dismissive or flip. This is just the real answer.

Pitchers aren't as good in the minors. Period. That's why. That is the reason. The pitchers aren't even close to as a good.

The Cardinals need to increase their humanpower in the minor leagues to meet and match or surpass the teams you mentioned. They're staffing is just far less than some of those teams.

Q: Long time Cards fan living outside STL area so I don't hear as much to the daily rumblings of the team. How do you see the outfield logjam being resolved? Personally I'm done waiting on O'Neill and as much as I like Carlson I think he would be better off getting a fresh start somewhere else. Assuming both are gone who do you think is starting in the outfield besides Nootbaar and Walker?

DG: Maybe I'm off on this, and we'll see. I don't spot the logjam that keeps coming up. And if there is one, fine, good, whatever, let the production decide. The logjam is alleviated some by the DH. The logjam is alleviated a lot by the production. The Cardinals can commit to a plan in center field -- sure seems like it's between Edman and Carlson -- and then commit to what they want to do in the corners. That sure seems to be Nootbaar and Walker. If that's the case, the Cardinals have already alleviated the logjam. O'Neill either pushes Walker to DH, thus putting Gorman or Donovan at 2B or on the bench, or there's a move that streamlines that group too. Either way, production has made the decision, and there's not much of a logjam at all. The more crowded spot on the roster is the middle infield. Production may not help make the answer there.

Q: Here’s to Waino. I must admit I was a bit emotional watching him go. He defined a Cardinal era. I enjoyed your piece on what his teammates and LaRussa said about him. I still remember the Beltran strikeout like it was yesterday. Outside of trading for Lou Brock, do you think trading for Waino was one of the best Cardinal trades ever?

DG: That is a great question. It's certainly the greatest trade for the Cardinals since 2000. Brock has to be the best ever. What else would be in the running? The deal for Frisch? He won the MVP the next year. The two trades involve Cepeda would be interesting to discuss. The Cardinals deal that got Sutter from the Cubs would have to be in the running. Right there are three deals that all involved Hall of Famers. None had the staying power with the Cardinals as Wainwright did, and that might just vault him right behind Brock. The longevity of the impact matters. Great question.

I invite everyone in the chat here to chime in.

I would like to note that when Walt Jocketty made that trade, little did he or anyone know that he would get a country music concert headliner to be named later.

Q: Do you think this off season is the one that Shildt is going to get another opportunity to manage again?

DG: Yes. He is deserving. He appears to be in a good spot. And there are teams that he would obviously help in areas where they need significant improvement.

Q: DG, Oli mentioned yesterday that himself and Mo and ownership were embarrassed by this season and motivated to never have this happen again. I believe it when he says that for himself, but the messaging from Mo and Dewitt has not been that of embarrassment and frustration. They make it seem like this is a one year blip, but that just isn't the case, its been an 8 year steady decline. If they truly don't believe their performance has declined, how will they make necessary changes?

DG: Fair question. Maybe they ought to echo their manager when they have the chance in the coming week. The Cardinals expect to have some meetings with the media once they're out of their internal meetings, and it will be really interesting to see how Mozeliak positions the messaging coming out of those, and how he articulates if he agrees with his manager or does not agree.

To me, it is telling that Mozeliak has repeatedly pointed the finger at the roster and offered confidence in his manager. Mozeliak is in charge of the roster. By not making a move or being critical of the manager, he's effectively saying that accountability was with the person who designed the plane, not the pilot.

He may not articulate that or say that, but it's there in his actions, thus far.

Q: What is the Cardinals view of Rom, Liberatore, Hudson, and Thompson and what role they will play in 2024 after their performance as starters in the second half?

DG: Encouraged by the strides they've made. Rom made strides, got valuable innings, and will fit in the depth chart, currently, as the lefty to lead the Class AAA rotation or be a part of the long depth in the majors. LIberatore has intrigued the Cardinals as a reliever, and this week there will be conversations about whether that's his future and he should focus on that this winter, or if that's the alternative and he'll prep as a starter to make his pitch there and relief is the backup option. Hudson has done well, but remains the pitch-to-contact pitcher. He's got some ideas on how to improve this winter, and he has confidence going into it. The Cardinals have a call to make on his contract, though he's not likely to see such a significant raise that the team winces at paying for depth/relief. Thompson probably had the biggest stride of the group, and he's off to Charlotte this week to begin his winter program and be evaluated for mechanics, etc. He's going to get a look at starting, and he's going to be part of the conversation on what starters the Cardinals acquire. Please scroll back for detailed explanation on why they can be a factor in the decisions and a part of the rotation while not limiting the Cardinals' ability or need to add three arms.

Q: Derrick, I absolutely respect and appreciate your articles, twitter (X) tweets, and chats. Yours is the only one I religiously follow. However, I think I have a decent memory, and last offseason I seem to recall that you stated in these chats that with the new shift restrictions the Cards defense should be at an advantage due to the range of their infielders. I don't think reality of this past season backed that up. Seems that later in the year I heard you state that the restrictions on shifts had actually hurt the Cards defense. And also, while describing the lack of pitching brought in last offseason, many of the free agent pitchers that were pushed for the Cards to go after in these chats ended up not helping their eventual teams. I'm thinking Rodon, Scherzer and several others I recall being mentioned.

DG: Thanks for the kind words. I would I imagine I did say that. And I feel pretty confident that should have been the case at the time. The Cardinals had four Gold Glove infielders at the four spots in the infield -- Arenado, the best defensive player at his position of his generation; Edman, playing shortstop but Gold at second; Donovan, utility Gold now at second; and Goldschmidt, a Gold winner, at first. Not only did they have the trophies, they had the metrics. Edman was the finest fielder in the game despite playing multiple positions in 2022. Arenado had a strong year at third base, and on and on. Goldschmidt was the only one that really didn't come out of 2022 close to his career norms on defense. Toss in Gorman at second, and his arm makes up for some of the things that his range does not. I feel pretty good about the claim that group should have had the range to overcome the outlawed shifts. Don't you?

Well, Donovan had 30 games started at 2B. Edman had 46 games started at SS. Already the pieces were in motion to covering other spots, and the defense was weakened from the one they expected to have. Arenado had the worst first half of his career defensively. He was frustrated. He spoke about it. There was no way to know that was going to happen -- and little chance that was related to the outlawed shifts. So, I still feel good about that claim and feel like there were facts on my side.

It did not turn out that way.

That could be the motto for 2023.

It did not turn out that way.

The Cardinals claimed they had enough pitching.

It did not turn out that way.

The Cardinals felt they had a strong defense.

It did not turn out that way.

They felt they could contend for a pennant.

It did not turn out way.

Goodness, did it not turn out that way.

The defense was ultimately undone by players out of position more than the lack of a shift. Look no further to the significant improvement made defensively in the past month. Seriously, the Cardinals went from bottom five in the league to emerging from the bottom third, and they may have closed in on being right there, above average, out of their hole and better defensively by the end. Arenado's rebound was a huge part of that. But so too were other positions that should have been good all along.

It did not turn out that way.

Q: Whenever there is a lengthy delay in a DG answer I assume that means news is breaking..

DG: Sometimes it's just me taking a break, so I don't snap. Or, I go get some popcorn.

Q: The club does those kinds of ceremonies so well and yesterday did not disappoint although I guess looking back they did miss the chance to blast "Back In Black" one last time when Molina popped out of the dugout.

DG: One of the notes -- ahem -- that the Cardinals did hit yesterday that I thought was well done and subtle was how they played Wainwright's music during the game, how they used it to then set the stage for his appearance at the plate, and then how they played his retirement anthem as he walked away. That was such a respectful and thoughtful nod.

Also, for the fans out there who want to know why they seem to do this well -- credit Bill DeWitt III. He's into the details of the team's history. He's the reason why the jerseys have chain stitching with the player's name on it, that fans don't ever see, right there on the tucked in tail. But that detail is there. And it's historic. And it matters to him. So too does surprises like the puppy. Keep that in mind as you think about what's ahead for the organization and his attention to detail.

Q: What did you make of Marmols comment about his players that think more about themselves than the team?

DG: I think credit should go to the media that asked the question and really brought out a pointed, critical answer.

I kid. I kid. I kid.

But, hey, there has been plenty of chatter on the social media squawkboxes about how the local media doesn't ask the right questions etc. etc. etc., so maybe this is a time to point out that an answer like that also comes after a question is asked.

I thought he was sending a message. This is something he felt was an issue for the team. This is an area where they can improve immediately. Join in. Or move on.

Q: Derrick -- I'm baffled by how the Cardinals have handled their relationship with Wilson Contrares this season. There has to be more to it, right?

DG: Nope, there doesn't. It is entirely possible that they handled it clumsily, and he deserves credit for getting them through that.

Now, they all have to figure out how to make the most of his ability and help him be the catcher they want. Or, and here's a crazy idea, alter what they expect from catcher to meet his skill set.

Q: Derek, you have often banged a drum (a really big one) about the lack of investment in a pitching lab that have helped many teams.. At this point, do you think the Cardinals are committed to making the investment necessary to to catch the Cardinals up to the rest of the league.

DG: They're aware of the gap -- have been for awhile -- and now they're aware of what that gap has caused in the standings. If not now, then when? If not now, then maybe never. They need to do for pitching what Jeff Albert helped them do for hitting, and there does seem to be a push to find a way to pull that off. Dusty Blake will be a big part of that, but he has his own consuming duties at the big-league level. Awareness is the beginning. Investment is the next step. And we'll see quickly if that's the case. Mozeliak midseason comments sure suggest that they need to catch up, and need to do so yesterday.

Q: Hi, Mr. Goold. I forgot to post my second question earlier. If the Cardinals trade O'Neill, has Palacios' performance elevated him to being the team's fourth outfielder instead of Carlson? Thank you.

DG: A lot of that will depend on how Carlson comes out of the surgery he had to address lingering pain and issues with his left foot. That is a big thing for the Cardinals. And a big thing for Carlson is the work he has planned this winter on his swing. Once healthy, there is a plan in place for him to seek out a way that enhances, unlocks, untracks -- whatever you'd like to use -- his swing. As of right now, Carlson has the edge because the Cardinals see him as a center fielder, and Edman has the other center fielder. Palacios has done great to position himself as a fourth or fifth outfielder, a lot of that comes from his left-handed swing, not necessarily his runs in center, not ahead of the other two. However, it creates a spot of competition and depth and what the Cardinals see from a healthy Carlson will be measured against what they saw from Palacios, and what they decide for center field. There is a wide bandwidth of outcomes for Carlson, up to and including being the Cardinals starting center fielder or being on another team.

Q: Anyone watching Tommy Edman play CF this weekend knows he has earned the starting job for next year. No other player's defense is close to his elite skillset in center. We can tell by Tommy's smiles that he loves it. Oli was asked directly if Tommy will be the CF starter next year. His coy little answer was "I like Eddie wherever he plays." It's due time that the Cardinals leadership make the tough decisions and enough with this shifting everybody around on defense as if it doesn't matter. Oli does it in order to "match up" his hitters against the pitching, but it's destroyed what was once a fine defensive team, one of the best, in fact. The defense needs more consistency, and less shifting of players next year. An OF of Noot in LF, Tommy win CF, and Walker in RF, with Palacios as the 4th OF'er is a fine place to start. No more tryouts needed. No more shifting b/c of saber metrics, no more getting a "bench bat" in the game and no more putting rookies out there who have never played a day in the outfield in their lives. Enough of the incompetence. Can we expect better from management next year, Derrick?

DG: I hear what you're saying, and the Cardinals are definitely discussing -- maybe even as I type this -- is Edman is their center fielder in 2024. That ties into decisions about Winn at shortstop and Carlson in the outfield, and maybe even a little about who plays second base. So, like defense itself, it's not in a vacuum. That said, they should still use analytics. That can help with the stability you seek. Yes, a coordinated and consistent defense would be an improvement. To get the Cardinals first need two things.

Production from those players that make them the best defense.

Health from those players who make up their best defense.

Q: Going into next season this team has got to put an emphasis on letting players be smart and aggressive on the basepaths. It was a very flimsy excuse to say they didn't swipe bags because of being down in most games, this team has more than enough athleticism to runs those types of risks and get us back into games by putting pressure on the opposing teams. Yesterday should have marked the day where this organization stops being so risk-averse on and off the field.

DG: Can I agree with you while also refuting the idea that it's a flimsy excuse? It's not a flimsy excuse at all. It's a grounded reason. But otherwise, preach on.

Q: Prediction: Mizzou basketball and STL soccer become more buzzworthy than middling baseball and hockey in the coming years.

DG: I'll take that bet. And if you win, we both do. I get compelling storylines to cover for a great brand under duress, plus my alma mater's basketball team has rebounded and I've got season tickets to City games and I'm real eager to see more of them. M-I-Z ... STLCity.

Q: Will Moises Gomez be the next Adolis Garcia? Since Mo did not give Moises Gomez a chance in St Louis, are they going to trade or release him?

DG: If they had a trade for him, it would have happened already. They may see if there's a taker after moving him off the roster. He also could be in a spot where he can become a free agent here in the near future if they don't do something before then. That's how he came to the Cardinals. He could be the next Lane Thomas, or Adolis Garcia, or Randy Arozarena, though I appreciate the comparison you made which is more directly related to 40-man decisions; Garcia and Gomez share that. Will also be interesting to see if Yepez gets a better opportunity elsewhere and takes off.

Q: Morning Mr. Goold and would like to take this opportunity to Thank you for helping to make this unbelievably difficult season a bit more fun and interesting with your chats and all the great information and logic you offer . I think the re-building of the minor league format is imperative to the Cards organization to stay in the top tier of clubs. That is going to mean changes...and not just with many of the roster spots...but also the people teaching and leading the organization. Mo and Ollie are here to stay, at least for now, so I think everyone needs to set that one aside. The question is can they make enough changes to climb out of the cellar of the NL Central? I think On the field?...there needs to be some really hard choices to make. Example?. IF we can get a top notch starter for a Nootbar or Gorman?.. is that the direction to go? Again, thanks to you for all the work and time...and hope you have a great off season. Lets ge em in 2024!!!

DG: Thank you for the kind words. You have hit on the series of questions that will likely define the offseason. What do they do to improve the framework of their development so that it enhances players and provides impact and depth when needed, not one or the other or neither. And, yes, teams know they'll be hunting for starters, and teams will try to get the best return, as is their job. They won't be charitable, and what the Cardinals have to offer in some cases is exactly what they've lacked and been trying to build -- left-handed upside. A tough call will have to be made, unless they can make the move elsewhere.

To do that, it could mean taking on a high salary without the guarantee of high return, and that bring us back to the role Thompson, Hudson, Rom, etc., play in shaping the potential moves the Cardinals could make. They could reduce what it takes in trade by taking on a higher salary for a player with an injury history. The salary is one the team wants to get out from under. Both sides then take on the risk of upside from the player, while the Cardinals take on the higher cost.

Q: Who is the last starting pitcher the Cardinals drafted and developed who was "good" for more than a few years. Wacha had a few good years, Flaherty had one. But it seems like through the years the Cardinals' best pitchers have been acquired through trades. I am thinking of Wainwright, Carpenter, Woody Williams, Jeff Suppan, Tudor, Adujar. If those pitchers set the bar for good, who have the Cardinals drafted and developed who would meet that criteria?

DG: Lance Lynn. Of course. It's Lance Lynn. And then it's Matt Morris. Morris meets those criteria and belongs in the team's Hall of Fame. Jaime Garcia gets overlooked too, too much for his contributions and how good he was for long stretches, including his comeback from an injury that ended the career of other pitchers. And I think Michael Wacha has to qualify. Yes, the more impactful pitchers have come from outside. Wainwright has to count somewhat as a player the Cardinals developed because a lot of what he became happened when he was a Cardinal. He's spoken often about that and even referenced it many times in the past week. But, absolutely, the lack of impact starters coming out of the organization is an example of how they've fallen behind and where they need to catch up. And fast.

Conclusion: Alright, that's going to have to be where we stop the chat this week. In about 5 hours of fielding questions we've got more than 300 inches and 11,200 words of coverage here. That's quite an afternoon of typing. No wonder my keyboard needs to be replaced. Consider that the first major move of the offseason. A new keyboard for my laptop.

It's going to be a busy winter.

Best be ready.

Thanks for all the questions. Thanks for your patience as I experimented with a new way to present the old chat to make it more readable. I've heard the complaints. I'm trying to make it better. Let me now if it did.

Talk to you next week. -- Derrick Goold